An interesting debate has broken out following Huw Lewis's concerns over the use of the term anti-Welsh by his boss Rhodri Morgan.
Here's what Peter Black says:
The use of such phrases consistently moves debate onto a nationalist agenda. The implication is that because somebody opposes a particular policy or does not want to go as far as others in implementing reform then they are acting against the Welsh interest. What they may or may not want to do will have merits and demerits and it is possible that some will take the view that their proposals will do damage to a particular community or communities but that should not call into question their patriotism. At least not without good cause.
This is what Huw Lewis said, talking to the Western Mail:
“I’m deeply worried about this phrase ‘anti-Welsh’ and I think it could represent quite a dangerous departure in our political conversation in Wales. If you consider how that kind of idea is used elsewhere in the world when talking about fellow citizens, like ‘anti-American’ for example, it is a phrase that is essentially used as a smear to shut down debate. It is low politics really and quite an offensive and divisive thing to say. We should be very careful about using the phrase in Welsh politics.”
Well, as someone who has used that phrase quite often, I can confirm that Huw Lewis is talking out of his arse. The US comparison is absurd. The US nation is not at threat of being made extinct. It is a large, powerful country. While, Wales has a democracy that is only 10 years old. There are those who would prefer for us not to have our own democracy - they would prefer to return to the days of the Governor General, like John Redwood, who imposes policies that are not the wish of the Welsh people. Anti-Welsh is an appropriate term for people with those views.
I find it interesting to note that the comments have been supported by the anti-Welsh and Tory-led True Wales. I think Huw Lewis should more careful with his bedfellows, and keep his mouth shut when it comes to terminology. A David Davies MP-Huw Lewis alliance is not be a pretty sight.
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18 comments:
Agreed Lenin - being anti-Welsh is a reference to Welsh Labour's ongoing and obsessive smearing of the Welsh-speakers of Wales, shutting down debate (to coin Lewis's phrase) by calling anyone who raises the issue of linguistic sustainabillity in poor Welsh-speaking areas 'racists' and 'xenophobes' , smearing the likes of Dafydd Iwan (called 'racist' by some Labour figures).
There's also the matter of Natwatch, the Assembly Laboru smear-machine, which called Plaid 'xenophbic' and told lies about its candidates and figures.
A good invstigation is needed into the links of certain AMs and their researchers and Natwatch.
It would bring some serious smear stories into te open.
I haven't heard Huw Lewis oppose those tactics...
Dafydd Iwan was called racist by some Labour figures when he referred to ethnic minorities as "all these Indians and Pakistanis" I think, not because he speaks Welsh!
In the context of quoting English in-migrants who gave their reason for moving to Wales 'all these indians and Pakistanis' coming into their English area. The offending phrase is quoted by Iwan and not made by him.
I remember the article and the furore - it was followed by a piece in the Western Mail by Huw Lewis accusing Iwan of pandering to racism. Iwan was in fact opposing racism, and its negative impact on his community.
Iwan was talking about the well-known 'white flight', white anti-multiculturalists moving to Wales to avoid ethnic minorities. The Labour party then twisted his words and accused him of racism. Because they were happy to smear and lie and shut down debate.
And Iwan's point, by the way, was that these English whites complaining about 'all these Indians and Pakistanis' came to Welsh-speaking areas and refused to learn Welsh, irony of inronies, migrating to a place where they didn;t respect the local culture.
I'd say that was the opposite of racism, no?
Still, if Labour can smear an opponent, why let the truth get in the way?
Dafydd Iwan was campaigning for th e release of Mandela when apparatchiks like Hue and Cry Lewis were plotting their party path in the Taffia.
You've gone all idiotically defensive. Dafydd Iwan chose his words all wrong, perhaps it is because he is of a certain generation, but he went in two footed and both ended up in his mouth. The point raised was that Iwan's language was called into question with good reason, as people in Plaid (and I think even Iwan himself later) admitted at the time. That has nothing to do with the merits of the argument put forward by Lewis and Black that the phrase "anti-Welsh" is dangerous. And say what you like about Lewis, he's hardly establishment Taffia!
Yes, Lewis is not taffia. He represents Merthyr, but lives in Penarth and sends his kids to school there. A real 'man of the people' I'd say.
Heh, smear tactics? Ironic, no? Did you object to Helen Mary Jones sending her kids to a school in Cardiff?
Friends, let's not get too personal. I don't want to have to remove comments.
Agreed. Let's get away from name calling and the toy throwing and look at the issue. The question at hand is: do you think the term "anti-Welsh" should be used by Welsh people about Welsh people with whom they disagree. It is a no-brainer for me. It is a stupid thing to say about someone from our own nation. Disagree with the issue, not a person's right to call themselves Welsh. The parallels with America are fair. Discuss.
Parallels with America are not fair. At all.
We all know that what is meant by anti-Welsh: it means anti-Welsh-speakers, and that is clearly what many Labour people are.
Anon 10.09- you rather prove my point, because at first you said that Iwan had said 'all those indians and pakistanis' ("he referred to ethnic minorities as "all these Indians and Pakistanis"" is what you wrote) clearly attributing the quote to Iwan.
When it was pointed out that you were yourself misquoting him (to smear him I imagine, or at least to lend credence to those who smeared him), you backtracked and said he'd 'chosen his words wrong'.
I see a Labour stooge on the smear-prowl... perhhaps you're emplyed by said party to trawl the blogs?
Discuss...
Yeah anon - why did your first post imply that Dafydd Iwan had actually said those words, if you knew he hadn;t?
And why if you knew he hadn;t actually said but quoted those words, did you frame your comment so it looked like he had?
My answer is this: that Labour c ontinue to try to fling accusations of racism against Plaid. If they think it will work, they'll do it. Trust me - I'm an ex-Labour South Walian and I've seen these people in action for decades.
It's true to say that the Labour party made every effort to misinterpret those comments for their own ends.
When it comes to anti-Welsh, I think it's fair to use the term to describe those who want to abolish Wales's democracy (ie. David Davies MP and True Wales)
Dear, dear. You are the one (Plaid employee anon) that introduced Dafydd Iwan into all this. All I said was that had nothing at all to do with the question posed by the blog.
People objected to what Dafydd Iwan said, most particularly the words that he used, but whether that is right or wrong is a long gone debate. The question posed by the blog is a new one and an interesting one. This idea that Welsh Labour, or any other party for that matter, goes around smearing Welsh speakers for speaking Welsh is just infantile with no basis in fact and again dodges the "anti-Welsh" issue.
A large percentage of Welsh Labour members are Welsh speaking. Why would they reside in a party that supposedly hates the language that they use? Sorry to introduce some logic to all this.
If people mean "anti Welsh language", they should say so, because that is very different (and self-evidently wrong). However, "anti-Welsh" is a different sentiment altogether. That means people are judging themselves to have more right to the Welsh nationality than another person, simply because they don't agree with their views. That is dangerous.
"People objected to what Dafydd Iwan said, most particularly the words that he used, but whether that is right or wrong is a long gone debate."
Yes, maybe, but that was not what your first post said. Your first post clearly implied that he had said those words. You imply the same thing on Peter Black's blog.
I'm sorry to have stymied you on this, but you were out to mislead, and were caught out.
Anti-Welsh isa phrase generally accepted as pertaining to anti-Welsh language.
I will make you a nice list of Welsh-language hating Labourites if you like.
Certainly Paul Flynn has one on his blog, which includes the names of both the current Welsh secretary and his fellow papal Knight Windfall Don.
The list of Labourites who used the language to attack Plaid is also a long one, and indeed both Rhodri and - very specifically - Carwyn Jones have accepted that. As Carwyn Jones wrote in a pamphlet, Labour often couldn;t tell the difference between attacking Plaid and attacking Welsh-speakers.
If I were in Plaid (which I'm not - I'm in Labour as it happens...) I'd start to look into who was behind Natwatch, and check out some of the shameful Welsh-language bashing rhetoric of that rag. I'll bet there's paid-up Labour staff behind it.
Then we might have a basis for discussion.
I am writing in my capacity as a Welsh Labour loyalost who has seen first hand what Welsh-bashing has done to the party.
My meaning behind the term anti-Welsh is "anti-Welsh democracy", as far as I am concerned it has absolutely nothing to do with the language.
I know that Rhodri Morgan has brought the language into the debate with his IWA article, but as far as I can see things, it is the national question ie. the future powers of the National Assembly that is the real dividing line in Labour, not the language.
Isn't the real opposition from some Labour MPs due to their hostility to devolution rather than a linguistic one? After all, Alun Michael is a Welsh speaker, but his main gripe seems to be devolution, not the language.
If Rhodri is so worried about the Welsh language why didn't he as party leader adopt the same policy to a new Act as all the other parties>?
I'm sorry but its not ok to assume that by using the term 'anti-Welsh'you actually mean anti Welsh-language.
There is a huge difference between the two and anyway it seems to me that Huw's points were fair and well argued. Maybe some of you lot should take a few lessons in rhetoric from the member for Merthyr.
Now the dust has settled a little on this debate, I think that two things are rather telling:
1. No Plaid Cymru politician has disagreed with the comments from Huw Lewis. Indeed, having listened to Adam Price last week talk about similar issues I am quite sure he would agree with the sentiments almost entirely.
2. No ire has been directed towards Peter Black, a Liberal politician, who came out immediately in support of the comments from Huw Lewis. Does this suggest that Carwyn's backers, inside and outside Labour, are merely using this opportunity to try and attack Lewis?
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