Clear support for a more independent Wales

on Friday, 3 February 2012

The first Welsh opinion poll of the year demonstrates great news for people that support further devolution. But what struck me was the Labour response from their officially-sanctioned sites on social media. To put it shortly, they are literally obsessed with independence ("only" 10% of the Welsh people want it in this week's poll). They barely mentioned the Tories who are supposed to be the official opposition in Wales.

Some commentators like Gareth Hughes are also focussing on the idea that 42% of Plaid's own supporters don't want independence (a minority of 33% does). I don't know why Gareth thinks this is a "surprise"-polls consistently show that Plaid's voters don't want independence- only 20% of them wanted independence in the last ICM poll so the support has actually gone up. Believe it or not, looking back over polling history it is normal for Plaid's voters to not support independence.

The current focus on Welsh independence is because the Plaid Cymru leadership contest has dominated the Welsh political debate for the past few months and that has required all of the various candidates to discuss independence positively. And in politics generally, the issue of Scottish independence has been looming large and would end the UK as we know it.

The reality though is that in Wales the political landscape is different to Scotland. Scotland has already been independent and has many of the necessary institutions to function as a state, as well as a relatively well-developed economic base. In Wales there is no such viability at this stage. Independence is a revolutionary proposal. It doesn't make sense from a conservative perspective and there's no reason why most people would see it as desirable at this stage, compared to in Scotland where a referendum is programmed to happen. We need nation-building before independence as an actual event becomes either popular or possible. With that said, nation-building in itself makes little sense unless there is a clear destination or purpose and on that basis I have always supported independence. Not for the sake of being Welsh, but because nations should decide their own affairs as much as possible, especially in such a globalised world where power is moving away from people towards corporations and so on. Wales obviously has the potential to flourish but unlocking that potential requires all kinds of interim policies to be put in place.

Put simply, you can't have an independent Wales without a Welsh legal system, control over our resources, and more entrenched national institutions. Democracy means that the likelihood of attaining all of those things over night is impossible. This needs to be understood by rabid Unionists as much as it does by pro-independence hardliners. It doesn't really matter if people don't want independence right now because Wales isn't ready. It is a goal to be attained. But without that goal there would be no point in solving that or no incentive to fix many of Wales' problems.

The good news then is that support for greater powers is up to 32%. I must admit I was worried that the prospect of Scottish independence would see a backlash amongst Wales' quite conservative electorate whereby they would want no more powers, having seen that further powers could lead to what Kim Howells used to call "the gates of independence". I am glad to see that hasn't happened. Although it would be wrong to read too much into one poll, this echoes the kind of polls we were seeing before the 2011 referendum. The referendum itself might have been expected to dampen enthusiasm down or to have demonstrated the "settled will" of the Welsh electorate for a generation, but there is no sign of that.

Electorally, the news is good for Labour with the same result being shown for Welsh elections as the pre-Assembly election poll. But as we have seen from the behaviour of the Labour party since being elected last May, it is one thing to be in power and another thing to be in control. Politics isn't as simple as replacing one party in power with another, it's also about building hegemony across all parts of society and therefore what you do when you have power.

With Labour having been in power in Wales and the UK for so many years it is worth asking have their main core aims been met? Has Wales or the UK become more equal and does Wales or the UK have less poverty? With Plaid Cymru for example, they were only in power for a fraction of time and Wales concretely became more self-governing in a way that was proportionate to the power they had as a junior partner (this is without mentioning their other aims). I don't see the evidence that Labour's ongoing time in power in Wales or at the UK level has translated into ending poverty by 2020, or reducing inequality, or any other of their historic core aims. So aside from seeing who is winning at elections it's also worth exploring what political action that translates into.

It's worth remembering that while an independent Wales is possible, a more independent Wales is almost certain and there are going to be many political struggles in Wales before an independence referendum is on the table.

14 comments:

Geraint said...

Yet Plaid were absolutely rejected by the Welsh electorate in 2011, and don't seem to be doing much better now. Welsh Labour has achieved a lot in government. Free Prescriptions, for example, have ended the tax on ilness that many people faced. Community First has helped some people in those communitiess. Welsh Labour has done a lot over the three terms it has had in government and is carrying on doing so in it's fourth term. Devolution, by the way, is also a Welsh Labour aim.

The problem for tackling poverty in Wales, is that the Assembly lacks the economic leavers to be able to use to help achieve those goals, and until Britain becomes a more federalised state, that is going to be a problem.

Welsh Ramblings said...

"Free Prescriptions, for example, have ended the tax on ilness that many people faced. Community First (sic) has helped some people in those communitiess."

Free prescriptions are a worthy part of the NHS but the reality is the core Labour aim of reducing poverty and inequality has not been missed.

"Devolution, by the way, is also a Welsh Labour aim."

Yet people standing under the 'Welsh Labour' banner have also been opposing devolution. This means devolution is coalitional rather than the property of one party.

"The problem for tackling poverty in Wales, is that the Assembly lacks the economic leavers (sic) to be able to use to help achieve those goals, and until Britain becomes a more federalised state, that is going to be a problem."

I can agree with that, but Labour does not really want the Assembly to have those levers. Indeed, only today the 'Welsh Labour' MP Ian Lucas was dismissing fiscal powers for Wales.

The problems are much wider and more structural than just promoting free prescriptions or communities first and in fact poverty in Wales is probably getting worse.

Welsh Ramblings said...

sorry, typo * aim of reducing poverty and inequality has been missed.

Anonymous said...

Support for more powers is especially positive given the last referendum was less than a year ago. It suits devo-naysayers and Brit Nats to concentrate on the independence question knowing it doesn't have to be answered imminently. Get them on a question they might actually have to answer and they become alot more slippery.

stuart said...

"Suppose Scotland became independent from the United Kingdom

Scotland would be better off: 23%
Scotland would be worse off: 47%
No big difference/don’t know: 30%"

After that I paid no attention to the results. I don't know who they asked the questions to but they have clearly been brainwashed by the English media.

If they realised that Scotland has in fact bankrolled the UK for the past few decades they might have a different view on the other questions.

Anonymous said...

This post sounds alot like kicking independence into the long grass. Have some ambition.

Gweriniaethwr said...

Very strange analysis indeed: "Yet Plaid were absolutely rejected by the Welsh electorate in 2011"
Really? If they were "absolutely rejected", how is it that they have 11 seats in the National Assembly? Surely "absolute" rejection = 0 seats/no representation? A mute point but it certainly sets the basis for that which follows.

I would however agree (partially) with the final statement. The thing is though: britain will never become federalised state. That is why we should not adopt the unionist attitude of 'if I stick my head firmly in the sand, it will all go away' we have seen of late in terms of the Scottish Independence debate.

Welsh Ramblings said...

Gweriniaethwr- Geraint and other Labour supporters approach politics from a British position, and in the British system the electoral system is designed to allow clear victories and defeats. This mindset leads him to claim "absolute rejection" for Plaid when in reality such a thing isn't really possible under fair voting. In a four party system, when the largest party hasn't won a working majority, no party can be irrelevant.

Welsh Ramblings said...

Anon 10:09- not at all. It's more like kicking the ball into touch in order to get further up the field.

Siônnyn said...

The figures in this poll are not dissimilar to Scottish polls held 10 years ago, and now the position in Scotland is very, very different. The reality of Scottish independence hasn't begun to sink into the conciousness of the Welsh electorate, partly because they have been fed lies and disinformation by the London media, including the BBC, but partly because no Welsh politicians have yet become to articulate them well or loudly enough.

That will change when Leanne Wood is elected leader of Plaid.

Anonymous said...

I totally disagree with Geraint. Plaid Cymru was unfortunate to had been in government with labour at a time when coalitions become unpopular. Plaid Cymru has fallen victim to hysteria because the people hated one coalition (con-dems) and they believed that the Welsh coalition government was no different.

Some people even thought it was another vote for Westminster (even though that vote took place in 2010). A lot of Plaid supporters I spoke to were angry with the 2007-2011 alliance with Labour, they felt it was a betrayal. So Geraint there are other reasons!

Welsh Ramblings said...

Not sure about that Anon 5:14. No doubt some Plaid supporters were "angry" about being in coalition with Labour (the most successful government since devolution began) and felt it was a betrayal as you say, but the bigger problem for Plaid was that many of their voters switched their support to the Labour party because of Labour's pledge to stand up for Wales. Regardless of whether it was true or not, it was an attractive proposition. It is the typical Plaid message but more people in Wales are convinced when Labour uses that line, because of the party's history being rooted in class politics, and also because Carwyn Jones is a very likeable figure as their leader.

Siônnyn said...

Anon - I predicted, well before the referendum, that a good YES vote would mean a drop in electoral support for Plaid - and so it proved. My reasoning was that a lot of nationalistic Labour supporter had turned to Plaid to ensure further powers, and once those had been secured (and they would not have been if it hadn't been for One Wales and Plaid) they felt safe going back home to Labour.

Also, as Leanne has pointed out, the Plaid faithful had worked so hard securing the YES vote that they were exhausted by the time the election came. I know that I was. And on top of that, Plaid had achieved so many of its medium term aims, there was the question of what was it for, which even life-long members couldn't answer. Thankfully, we now have a very credible and well thought out plan for the future, devised under the chairmanship of Eurfyl Ap Gwilym, and a leadership contest that will hopefully produce a leader capable and willing to see it through.

And we are also seeing the Welsh Labour party self-destruct as the Scottish one did, with the London leadership embracing the neo-liberal economics of the Tories, and coming to Wales to patronise our first minister and damn him with faint praise (and all the while murdering the pronunciation of his name!)

So the question of the moment - in fact the question of the decade ahead is no longer what is Plaid for, but rather, what is Labour for?

Welsh Ramblings said...

Some interesting points Siônnyn but I wouldn't bank on the Welsh Labour party self-destructing. They really aren't. Jones is nothing like Iain Gray or Wendy Alexander or the poor quality MSPs put forward in Scotland. What is happening though is that at the UK Labour level an ideological struggle is taking place between a vaguely left/Keynesian camp and a vaguely rightist/"Blairite" camp, so when it comes to questions about welfare, health and the economy they don't look that confident. I will write a bit about this soon.